|  Author | Topic: Was Jesus Christ a Paranoid Schizophrenic? (Read 158 times) |
wooljesus
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« Thread Started on Feb 20, 2012, 7:23pm » | ![[Quote]](http://images.proboards.com/new/buttons/quote.png "[Quote]") |
From http://www.godoflamb.com/2012/02/20/was-jesus-christ-a-paranoid-schizophrenic/:
JB Turnstone's response:
I wonder if he may have been manic-depressive as well. It seems like his mood tends to swing between gregarious elation and silent contemplation. He seemed very unpredictable. This of course is also a key component to schizophrenia. At any rate he sure spent a lot of time sitting by himself in the desert. It’s very telling that this side of him seldom makes its way into sermons during church. You hear about the miracles and the wise sayings, but you rarely hear about the frequent disparaging remarks he makes when his disciples fail to grasp his point (which happens a lot), or when he storms off in a fit of anger to once again be by himself. Then there’s the issue of the failed miracles, which inexplicably made their way into the Bible. Will Durant argued in a theory called “the criterion of embarrassment” that these unflattering depictions ought to be considered proof that the Gospel accounts of Jesus are true. If it was all propaganda meant for brain-washing people into order and compliance, as so many modern atheists tend to insist, why then did they consciously choose to create such a strange character, someone so hard for basically any curious audience to relate to? They could’ve made him a lot more compelling, or in the very least they could’ve invented a character who would appeal to a broader, cosmopolitan audience. They could’ve given us a super-hero (imagine if the Gospel accounts all featured the Jesus of Revelation). Instead they gave us a bum who told people to act like flowers. The story of Jesus is full of failures and contradictions because the story of every human who ever lived is full of failures and contradictions; the only explanation for keeping them intact is the notion that the Gospel writers sincerely believed in his teachings and felt an obligation to record the whole truth and nothing but the truth (so help us God), and that truth is far from a flattering picture.
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wooljesus
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« Reply #1 on Feb 20, 2012, 7:29pm » | |
You're right, and excellent point; Christ indeed seemed to see-saw between delusions of eternal life and expectations of a violent death. I think the best evidence of his being what we now call "mentally ill" is his dismayed cry on the cross: "My god, my god, why have you forsaken me?"
Sounds like he was really expecting to be protected; I've read about plenty of similar pre-suicide statements from people we now relegate to the loony bin.
JB, have you ever seen a film called "The Man from Earth?" I think you'd love it - check it out if you can: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0756683/
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jbturnstone
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« Reply #2 on Feb 21, 2012, 9:41am » | |
I haven't seen that movie...but I will check it out as soon as I get Netflix.
Another hint to the "crazy Jesus" theory may also be found in his trial before Pilate. Here was perhaps the greatest anti-climax in all of history, maybe in all of literature. It's even worse than Hector running away from Achilles. Here again, if the Gospel writers had intended the story to be propaganda, they would have had Jesus the Philosopher rhetorically humiliate his nemesis, but instead he just sort of zones out--which is exactly how paranoid schizophrenics react under the scrutiny of authority figures. When Pilate questions him about destroying and rebuilding the Temple in three days, or about being a king, he says "It is as you say" and "I am the Truth," and that's a lot like John Nash being questioned about men in black and UFOs: "you people will never understand, so there's no point explaining it to you."
GK Chesterton had an interesting take on the last words of Christ, recognizing (in a way that theologians must by their very nature overlook) that something very strange was going on:
"Christianity is the only religion on earth that has felt that omnipotence made God incomplete. Christianity alone has felt that God, to be wholly God, must have been a rebel as well as a king. Alone of all creeds, Christianity has added courage to the virtues of the Creator. For the only courage worth calling courage must necessarily mean that the soul passes a breaking point—and does not break...When the world shook and the sun was wiped out of heaven, it was not at the crucifixion, but at the cry from the cross: the cry which confessed that God was forsaken of God. And now let the revolutionists choose a creed from all the creeds and a god from all the gods of the world, carefully weighing all the gods of inevitable recurrence and of unalterable power. They will not find another god who has himself been in revolt... Let the atheists themselves choose a god. They will find only one divinity who ever uttered their isolation; only one religion in which God seemed for an instant to be an atheist."
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wooljesus
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« Reply #3 on Feb 21, 2012, 8:35pm » | |
From the comments on the article at http://www.godoflamb.com/2012/02/20/was-jesus-christ-a-paranoid-schizophrenic/:
Pat says:
February 21, 2012 at 6:26 am
Interesting perspective. Comparing Jesus and Nash is a bit like comparing the Kennedy assassination circumstances to those of the Lincoln assassination and the erie coincidences of the two events. (maybe ther are not related at all, just coincidences) If Jesus and or Nash were paranoid schizophrenics – what is to be taken away from this? That someone who has left behind so much good has done so as the result of being a madman? What if Jesus really had been mad? And what could he have accomplished if he had not been mad? And the same goes for John Nash. That is a more intriguing question. It seems that some (like Nash himself) want to attribute the good they do to their madness and then conclude that madness may be or must be a good or even a desirable state because of their accomplishments during a period of madness. Maybe if they had not been mad they would have accomplished infinitely more. How would the world have been if Jesus had lived another 30 years or so to continue preaching his message. Hard to say. But my belief is that madness does not allow one to do great things – it simply exists in some as parallel to other things they do. And madness is not healthy. Madness is nothing more than an earlier than needed end to someone. Madness is a byproduct, not a prime mover.
None the less – maybe Jesus could have been a paranoid schizophrenic. I do not think it matters.
Charity McPike says:
February 21, 2012 at 8:02 pm
Not so novel—your premise that Christ may have been mentally ill. We have heard this assertion from critics unceasingly? Most have also heard the declaration that Christ was either the Son God, or he was a complete liar. Is it possible that a man so historically validated—clearly known to have spread such tremendous welfare and brilliant allegory—was in fact a deceiver?
Of all the Biblical prophecies recorded, every phenomenon which was to have occurred by this time has been 100% fulfilled. No other sacred writing can make this claim. This is most critical because the Bible declares that a savior will arrive providing a way of forgiveness, a means by which we will enter heaven. The lineage of David, the virgin birth in the town of Bethlehem, his giving sight to the blind—these promises and over 360 more have been fulfilled through Jesus.
I am certain not one prophesied of the coming John Nash; predestined to appear upon the landscapes of New England on a mission of mathematical brilliance. Yet for thousands of years our forefathers, under divine inspiration, prepared for the coming Messiah. They recorded the foretelling as well as the aftermath of his heavenly miracles; the coming Savior’s truth, love, revelation, as well as his blood sacrifice.
If it had been fanatical men making these predictions, would a history full of miracles and the prophets through which they were worked have launched the world’s three major religions? Neither the Christians, nor the Jews, nor the Muslims doubt the sanity of Jesus. The thousands of spectators, beyond the twelve disciples who claimed to have witnessed the miracles of Christ, and furthermore those witnessing the miracles of the Spirit-filled disciples following Christ’s death—were they also mentally ill? Saul, who along with Peter and John, who would ameliorate beliefs of multitudes in but a single language before mass transit, was the worst of the hateful Pharisees, prior to his blinding revelation on the road to Damascus. These disciples you question as lunatics were more effective and passionate about their beliefs then the stately spaniel, because they had walked with Jesus.
Kings, wise men and the Roman government were distressed by this Jesus. They feared the impact that other messianic imposters had never paralleled. Did this schizophrenic man talk to himself? Did he fear satanic attack? Did he go 40 days without food? In essence, do the millions of followers who have fallen to their knees, fasted and prayed against dark forces also fall under the schizophrenic label?
If we still doubt the historic reality of Christ’s life, dismiss the following he received, omit the fact that one man’s proclamations, life and teachings had the power to inspire millions of followers within decades of his death through two millennium—are we not only ignorant but breaching the very cast of insanity?
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wooljesus
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« Reply #4 on Feb 21, 2012, 8:36pm » | |
I'm going to respond to the above comments when I get a chance - thanks for your input.
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wooljesus
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« Reply #5 on Feb 22, 2012, 3:10am » | |
Quote:| if the Gospel writers had intended the story to be propaganda, they would have had Jesus the Philosopher rhetorically humiliate his nemesis, but instead he just sort of zones out--which is exactly how paranoid schizophrenics react under the scrutiny of authority figures. When Pilate questions him about destroying and rebuilding the Temple in three days, or about being a king, he says "It is as you say" and "I am the Truth," and that's a lot like John Nash being questioned about men in black and UFOs: "you people will never understand, so there's no point explaining it to you." |
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Precisely; also, if we rewind a bit, there's the violent outburst at the temple where Christ "whips" the imposters and claims he can destroy the facility and rebuild it in three days. When asked what he's waiting for, he claims "it is not yet his time," which again sounds a lot like "I can't show you those boogeymen, but damn it, they're real."
Quote:| "...Let the atheists themselves choose a god. They will find only one divinity who ever uttered their isolation; only one religion in which God seemed for an instant to be an atheist." |
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Interesting.
Quote:Pat says:
February 21, 2012 at 6:26 am
Interesting perspective. Comparing Jesus and Nash is a bit like comparing the Kennedy assassination circumstances to those of the Lincoln assassination and the erie coincidences of the two events. (maybe ther are not related at all, just coincidences) If Jesus and or Nash were paranoid schizophrenics – what is to be taken away from this? That someone who has left behind so much good has done so as the result of being a madman? |
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I disagree; we're not comparing two events, we're comparing two people. Also, in one case (Nash) we have a man who has managed to overcome his condition to the tune of international fame and monumental self-revelation. Nash is still living, and has openly talked about his experiences, which we may take to be an accurate account of his breakdown(s). That similarities exist between his behavior and Christs may be coincidental, but as JB mentions above, logic suggests a romanticized/propagandized accounting of Christ would have been very different.
Also, "done so much good" and "madman" are completely subjective; without getting into the infinite evil done in his name (the Crusades come to mind), it is the latter suggestion that bothers me. I did not suggest Christ was insane - I suggested he might have been a paranoid schizophrenic. The stigmas surrounding the "disease" are all negative to us - but historically, such experiences are common with humanity's great prophets (Moses, Mohammed, Noah, to name a few), and what we now categorize as a "mental illness" may very well be an evolutionary advancement in thinking.
[quote]what could he have accomplished if he had not been mad? And the same goes for John Nash. That is a more intriguing question. It seems that some (like Nash himself) want to attribute the good they do to their madness and then conclude that madness may be or must be a good or even a desirable state because of their accomplishments during a period of madness. Maybe if they had not been mad they would have accomplished infinitely more. How would the world have been if Jesus had lived another 30 years or so to continue preaching his message. Hard to say. But my belief is that madness does not allow one to do great things – it simply exists in some as parallel to other things they do. And madness is not healthy. Madness is nothing more than an earlier than needed end to someone. Madness is a byproduct, not a prime mover./quote]
An interesting conjecture - perhaps in the absence of paranoia/schizophrenia, Nash (and Jesus) could have done far more good/made far more mathematical advancements. Again, however, I would disagree; as Nash himself mentions, it was a radical (read: revolutionary) frame of mind that both drove him to and made possible his discovery of Nash Equilibria (A Game Theory game where no player can improve his standing without another player being hurt - an economical version of Christ's message). As for Christ - if he had not heard voices, seen visions, "talked" to God and Satan and everyone in between, he may not have been so motivated to get out into the real world and shake it up with hookers and lepers.
Consider Mother Theresa - she believed she was assigned a mission from God. Did this make her crazy? Even if it did, what was the result of this unrelenting pressure that had her convinced she not only could, but must find the "dregs" of humanity and save them? Only a complete belief in the idea that God himself was commanding you could drive a human being to continuously risk their life in such a way.
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wooljesus
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« Reply #6 on Feb 22, 2012, 3:38am » | |
Quote:Charity McPike says:
February 21, 2012 at 8:02 pm
Not so novel—your premise that Christ may have been mentally ill. We have heard this assertion from critics unceasingly? Most have also heard the declaration that Christ was either the Son God, or he was a complete liar. Is it possible that a man so historically validated—clearly known to have spread such tremendous welfare and brilliant allegory—was in fact a deceiver? |
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I think the personal offense (please re-read the beginning of the article) has clouded your interpretation of what I presented a bit. I don't believe Christ was a deceiver at all - my point was that he very much believed what he was teaching was real, and that allowed him to achieve greatness.
Quote:
Of all the Biblical prophecies recorded, every phenomenon which was to have occurred by this time has been 100% fulfilled. |
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Uh...
Quote:| The lineage of David, the virgin birth in the town of Bethlehem, his giving sight to the blind—these promises and over 360 more have been fulfilled through Jesus. |
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This gives me a great idea for an article about Mary and her "virginity."
Quote:
I am certain not one prophesied of the coming John Nash; predestined to appear upon the landscapes of New England on a mission of mathematical brilliance. Yet for thousands of years our forefathers, under divine inspiration, prepared for the coming Messiah. They recorded the foretelling as well as the aftermath of his heavenly miracles; the coming Savior’s truth, love, revelation, as well as his blood sacrifice. |
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The Mayans (and many other cultures) believed in a cyclical universe where a God figure must eventually be consumed by his worshipers - I'm sure you're familiar with the whole pyramid/head cutting fiesta deal made popular in Apocalypto.
Quote:
If it had been fanatical men making these predictions, would a history full of miracles and the prophets through which they were worked have launched the world’s three major religions? |
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.
You're assuming history is full of miracles, which I think many would disagree with, and yes, fanatical men are a requirement for the dissemination of religion. Just look at Jesus and Mohammed. Today, both would be laughed off the soapbox.
Quote:
Neither the Christians, nor the Jews, nor the Muslims doubt the sanity of Jesus. The thousands of spectators, beyond the twelve disciples who claimed to have witnessed the miracles of Christ, and furthermore those witnessing the miracles of the Spirit-filled disciples following Christ’s death—were they also mentally ill? |
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If David Blaine time-traveled to ancient Jerusalem, he'd be worshiped as a God - would that make the people he deceived mentally ill? Might not gullible be a better word? Or, as I tend to believe in Jesus' case, might people simply have been impressed with his command of language, logic, and utter devotion to his ideas? After all, he was martyred, and we all know similar figures from our own time (e.g. Gandhi, Osho, even Charles Manson) whose fanatical commitment and uncompromising nature garnered them an unshakeable following.
And, as with certain celebrities, the very nature of dying before one's time cements one's mystique in the historical eye.
Quote:
Saul, who along with Peter and John, who would ameliorate beliefs of multitudes in but a single language before mass transit, was the worst of the hateful Pharisees, prior to his blinding revelation on the road to Damascus. These disciples you question as lunatics were more effective and passionate about their beliefs then the stately spaniel, because they had walked with Jesus. |
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You're committing the fallacy of implying causation (is it not more likely that people that were already like Jesus/had similar ideas would be attracted to him, and not the opposite? We all know how hard it is to change someone's opinions, and historically great revolutions involve preexisting disapproval of authority and an implicit subscription to the leader's teachings (William Wallace is a great example of this).
Once more, I do not question them as lunatics; fanatics, or zealots maybe, but I see nothing wrong with this, and it is modern man that looks at such labels as negative. Hell, consider modern jihadists - is there some reason they are "evil," while the world-wide conquest of Christianity is "good?"
Quote:
Kings, wise men and the Roman government were distressed by this Jesus. They feared the impact that other messianic imposters had never paralleled. Did this schizophrenic man talk to himself? Did he fear satanic attack? Did he go 40 days without food? In essence, do the millions of followers who have fallen to their knees, fasted and prayed against dark forces also fall under the schizophrenic label? |
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Firstly, you are repeating my point and highlighting the impact Christ's supernatural experiences had on his teachings. Secondly, yes, he did all of those things, which most of us would consider insane. Finally, there is nothing "schizophrenic" about following the teachings of a dynamic figure. Does a nosebleed mean you have ebola?
Quote:
If we still doubt the historic reality of Christ’s life, dismiss the following he received, omit the fact that one man’s proclamations, life and teachings had the power to inspire millions of followers within decades of his death through two millennium—are we not only ignorant but breaching the very cast of insanity? |
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Christ did not gain a significant following within decades of his death; he wasn't even written about until almost a century later. It was the repeated mishandling of the situation by various authorities that allowed Christianity to blossom as the religion of the rebellious (let's not forget that times were tough, and people were looking for an escape, just as extremists today have no trouble recruiting those who believe some extreme change is necessary). The environment was ripe for revolution, but it took hundreds of years.
You make a lot of loaded statements, which is okay considering you are clearly passionate about your beliefs. But, as stated earlier, I think this clouds your perspective, and makes you interpret a dispassionate analysis as a polemic.
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jbturnstone
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« Reply #7 on Feb 22, 2012, 1:45pm » | |
I'll argue from the following assumed position: Jesus Christ was the Son of God, he was the Messiah, he performed miracles, his biography in the Canonical Gospels is 100% historically correct, he was resurrected three days after being murdered, and he even left us a photographic snapshot of his resurrection on the Shroud of Turin.
That being said, I can't see any reason to believe that declaring this man "crazy," "insane," or "schizophrenic" at all denigrates his legacy or compromises his divinity. Consider the portrayal of God in the Old Testament: here is a character so superior, so enigmatic, that you weren't even allowed to refer to him by name. He was "the ineffable one." If you even tried to comprehend his reasoning or presume his intent, he would set the whole forces of the universe against you, as was the case with Job, who eventually came to be at peace with humanity's inability to understand (this, in my opinion, is what makes Job the most important book in the Bible). If Christ was sent to bridge the gap and try to help us understand, is it any wonder then that most people would respond to him either with confusion or disgust? If you believe everything the Bible says, don't forget that St. Mark said most people would not be able to understand, and so would not be saved (the pickings are even slimmer in the Gnostic Gospels). Don't forget that the greatest prophet of all would be rebuked and scorned by his own family and neighbors. Is it unreasonable to say that something like the Sermon on the Mount has the ring of madness? Only if you believe that all madness is shameful. Christ was mad, and it was a beautiful madness. You could say the same about John Nash or William Blake, neither of whom would've been able to change the world were it not for the fact that they "heard voices" and "had visions." If the nature of God is truly unknowable, if viewing the Creator's face turned Moses into a shriveled old man, then it could be assumed that God's message could not have been contained within the limits of mere Greek, Latin, and Aramaic (to say nothing of the King's English). One could assume that the madness of Christ was not only part of his suffering, but essential to the delivery of his message to those who were lucky enough to understand it.
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wooljesus
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« Reply #8 on Feb 22, 2012, 8:24pm » | |
I'd like to throw in a personal favorite - Kurt Godel. As a twenty-something logician at Princeton, he so astounded Einstein that the two became close friends, even to the point that Einstein later admitted the "only reason he came to work anymore was to listen to Godel."
What does this have to do with God? Like Einstein, Godel was devoutly religious; also like Einstein, he shrugged off religious labels like Christianity or Buddhism and simply pursued the Truth. This led to the most famous mathematical proof of all time, the Incompleteness Theorem, which shows that even in a system built on finite axioms, unprovable truths will arise. If that's not an indicator of the necessity of faith to understand a unifying Truth or God, I don't know what is.
Even more interestingly, like Nash and myriad geniuses (including Christ, possibly), Godel's death came via insanity; like Osho, he became ultra-paranoid of being poisoned, and would only trust his wife to prepare his food. When she became ill, he refused to eat, and even in the face of his concerned colleagues and friends, eventually starved, dying at a paltry 65 pounds.
To mention another GK Chesterton quote: "The poet only seeks to get his head into the heavens; it is the logicians that seeks to get the heavens into his head, and it is his head that splits." As history seems to indicate, Truth is too much for one man; we are not "allowed" to get it, ever - there is far more material, energy, and mystery outside out heads than inside our skulls. It is an unspoken, beautiful insanity alone that appears in those who have seemed to been shown something deeper that continually arises in humanity.
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tetrad
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« Reply #9 on Jun 11, 2012, 1:39am » | |
Bipolar Christ FTW
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netstat
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« Reply #10 on Jun 26, 2012, 1:28pm » | |
Error establishing a database connection
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wooljesus
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« Reply #11 on Jun 26, 2012, 7:31pm » | |
Huh... don't know what that's about netstat...
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tetrad
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« Reply #12 on Jul 12, 2012, 11:53am » | |
After some thought it seems likely that Jesus was bipolar and schizophrenic.
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jbturnstone
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« Reply #13 on Jul 12, 2012, 2:27pm » | |
Some would even say ........ Tripolar.
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wooljesus
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« Reply #14 on Jul 12, 2012, 6:14pm » | |
Nailed it.
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